RE: Re: placing microphones...

["Amar Nagi" <amar@xxxxxxx>]

Nikola,

Can i just add something to this discussion.
I too looked at a microphone solution to VR home automation, and after alot
of
research i decided not to. I went for a cordless phone solution
instead.
It is just not reliable enough. One major point i hated was if you have
guests
round with kids they too can start speaking commands.
I saw a few future homes and each one opted for the phone or headset
solution.
Check out the orange.co.uk future home project.

It can be really embrassing siting with guests trying to give commands
to your node0 and getting no response, whereas the phone solution 
works i would say 95% of the time if not more.

Food for thought..........


      -----Original Message----- 
      From: Nikola Kasic [mailto:nikola@xxxxxxx]

      Sent: Mon 15/07/2002 16:57 
      To: ukha_d@xxxxxxx 
      Cc: 
      Subject: RE: [ukha_d] Re: placing
microphones...
      
      
      Paul,
      I am sitting in a sofa opposite the TV and I
am faced towards TV. Where should I mount my mic? If I mount mic on a wall
behind me it will be closer to me then to the TV but it will be behind my
back. If I place it behind TV, I'll be faced towards mic, but TV will be
closer. So, which way to go?
      My original plan is neither. I planned to
put it above the doors of the lounge, so it would be at on the side, almost
equally distanced from me and TV (slightly closer to TV). But distance
between me and mic and TV and mic will be about 4-5m, while distance
between me and TV is about 3.5m. 
      Is that O.K?
      I am reading all the theory, but I'm not
smarter. All the documents are for the environment when you know where
speaker is standing, so you use different kinds of mics to enhance
reception from speaker and attenuate the noise. Hence kardioid etc.
mics.
      However, in a flat I'll be moving and for
moving speakers they recommend using wireless mics which you wear, but you
don't want those either. So there's no proper solution. I'll asume that
I'll be in a sofa and try to adjust everything for that scenario. All the
rest is in god's hands.
      Where did you buy your microphones
from?
       
      I just ordered mic cable. It would cost me
about 44 quid, because delivery is £8.
      Spoke to Mark from West London Elec as you
recommended.
      They don't have web site yet (will in a
month, he said) and their address is 9-11Acton High Road if anyone is
interested.
       
      You said that you did a lot of research
before diving into this. What makes you think that recognition is not good
because of software and not because of hardware or microphone
placement?
      Did you ever consider placing wireless
microphones, instead of wired ones, so you can place more of them, at more
appropriate places?
      Regarding noise cancellation, did you
consider having one mic very close to TV speaker and use that signal for
cancellation. Maybe having wireless one and place it on top, or inside the
TV speaker, or inside TV?
       
      Nik

            -----Original
Message-----
            From:
psghome2002 [mailto:psghome@xxxxxxx]
            Sent: 15 July
2002 13:21
            To:
ukha_d@xxxxxxx
            Subject:
[ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...
            
            
            I'm emailing
several people with the same info at the moment - maybe 
            I should put
it all down on a web page (if I ever get the time!). 
            See my
comments below (rather long though):
            
            
            > What do
you use them for, at the moment?
            
            Used for
Voice Recognition - tried HAL2000 and HomeVoice. Both got 
            serious
limitations in the way I want to use it though. I've been 
            talking to
Dan Hoenhen (ACE) about him developing an ACE VR module 
            which could
potentially be much more flexible than HAL or HomeVoice.
            
            Also will use
as additional voice/noise tracking as part of Comfort 
            alarm system
- recording when alarm activated. Got a lot to do 
            before that
though.
            
            > Do you
have one in each room, or maybe two in larger rooms like 
            lounge?
            
            only one in
each room (well 7 so far). Although some of my rooms are 
            fairly large,
one mic picks up voice OK (depending on background 
            noise).
Interesting listening to conversations - not that I'd do 
            that of
course!
            
            > Which
cable did you use? Someone said that it's very important to 
            put good
            > quality
microphone cable. Where did you buy it?
            
            I agree - mic
cable is very different to other types of cable. I 
            used an
Adastra Z323 cable - 2 cores with overall screen. 
            recommended
for 'installed' sound applications. Got it from  West 
            London Elec -
Mark - 0208 9922155. £35.25 inc VAT per 100m drum.
            
            
            > And
what's your longest run from mic to mixer?
            
            About 20-30m
I guess. Mic cable can run much longer distances 
            though. I've
used it on productions in excess of 60m
            
            > I am
sorry for so many questions, but there are only few people 
            with
            >
microphones on this group, so you are very valuable source of 
           
information.
            > It seems
that the most important thing is placing them.
            > Where
did you place yours?
            
            On the wall
at light switch height. Although the guys at Shure are 
            very adamant
about not ceiling mounting, I did try taping a mic at 
            various
points around the room and the difference was normally quite 
            small. Best
to site it towards where you will speak. I suggest you 
            try it like
this before running cable.
            
            > At the
begining, I'll have my microphone in the lounge only. 
            Therefore,
I'll
            > not use
mixer yet (have to save money for it first). That's where 
            it will
be
            > mostly
used for giving commands for controlling devices. My lounge 
            is
            >
6.5mx3.8m. Sofa is opposite to the TV and that's where, usually 
            I'll be
            > giving
commands from.
            > But it's
not simple for me to bring microphone close to the sofa. 
            How did
            > you
place yours?
            > How does
it behave when TV is playing? Is it capable of 
           
distinguishing your
            > voice
from TV voice, or do you have to yell?
            
            You need to
set your expectations as to what to expect from 'open 
            air voice
recognition'. The results will range from good to very 
            poor (it's
very frustrating when you have to repeat yourself many 
            times!). VR
technology (at least in open air) is still limited. If 
            you've got a
TV on (depending on volume) the results will vary a 
            lot. After
all, how could the software distinguish between someone 
            talking on
the TV and your voice?
            
            I've been
thinking about noise cancelling technology to help with 
            this - maybe
feeding the output of the TV/Stereo into a circuit with 
            the mic
signal and cancelling out the TV/Stereo frequencies. I 
            suspect it'd
be quite difficult though as the signal transmitted 
            from the TV
speaker will sound very different to the 'clean' line-
            out signal.
Any thoughts anyone?
            
            > You have
that intelligent mixer and it detects which microphones is
            >
receiving sound an makes it active. If TV or music is playing in 
            the
lounge,
            > will
that lock the mixer to microphone in the lounge, so it will 
            not
listen
            > in other
rooms?
            
            Yes it can
lock it out. The mixer has input balancing controls for 
            each input
and an overall master control. You set these controls 
            depending on
the ambient levels in each room so that it switches 
            correctly.
This of course doesn't account for when someone switches 
            on loud TV or
music in the kitchen and you're trying to talk to your 
            PC in the
lounge. That's why I went for the Shure mixer with it's 
            logic control
- using outputs from HV or other HA hardware, you can 
            manually
select which mic to 'lock on' (or you could wire up a very 
            simple
override switch - uses 5V logic). You can also detect which 
            mic is active
- which I will use to eventually feed back PC voice to 
            only the room
giving commands.
            
            I went for
all this as I'm interested in the technology. I think it 
            still has a
long way to go to get to the 'Startrek Voyager' stage!
            
            >
Cheers,
            > Nik
            > 
            > 
           
>   -----Original Message-----
           
>   From: psghome2002 [mailto:psghome@h...]
           
>   Sent: 13 July 2002 19:12
           
>   To: ukha_d@y...
           
>   Subject: [ukha_d] Re: placing microphones...
            > 
            > 
           
>   Round 2...
            > 
           
>   I also put in mics in most rooms for voice recognition. I
did a 
            LOT
           
>   of research and eventually put in Crown PZM11 wall mics.
They're
           
>   fairly inobtrusive and based on the US 'J Box' size format
(you 
            can
           
>   use a J Box or just cut a hole in the wall and use rawl
plugs for
           
>   the screw fixing - I did both).
            > 
           
>   The mic quality is great - it's a pressure zone mic and
designed 
            to
           
>   pick up voice frequencies (has a bit of bass roll-off to
cut HVAC
           
>   noises etc). I fed these via standard mic cable (very
important 
            to
           
>   use good quality cable) which is screened (doesn't cost a
great 
            deal
           
>   either) into a Shure SCM810 intelligent mixer. This mixer

            supplies
           
>   +48V phantom power to the mics. It automatically senses
which mic
           
>   has the loudest input and switches to that source. Also
has a 
            logic
           
>   input so you can do some clever stuff linked to HomeVision
etc.
            > 
           
>   Shure web site (www.shure.com)
           
>   Crown web site (www.crownaudio.com)
            > 
           
>   Shure has a good document on why you SHOULD NOT place mics
on the
           
>   ceiling:
            > 
           
>   http://www.shure.com/support/technotes/app-ceiling.html
            > 
           
>   Mics will pick up all noise in the room, so depends on
what you 
            want
           
>   to do with it.
            > 
           
>   I'm planning to try and create a whole-house hands-free
telephone
           
>   system. Don't know how successful it'll be though.
            > 
           
>   I put a couple of pics on the Yahoo group Photos area -
mic and
           
>   keypad for audio system - Under subject 'Pauls mics'
            > 
           
>   Let me know if you want more info.
            > 
           
>   Paul.
            > 
            > 
            > 
           
>   --- In ukha_d@y..., "Nikola Kasic"
<nikola@k...> wrote:
           
>   > Along with speakers, I plan to put microphones in
each room as
           
>   well.
           
>   > My main question is: what kind of cable I should put
in and 
            what's
           
>   the
           
>   > longest run I can use before degrading signal?
           
>   > Also, where should I place microphones, relative to
the 
           
speakers,
           
>   in order
           
>   > to avoid feedback and echoing?
           
>   > If speaker is close to the microphone and music is
coming out 
            of
           
>   it, will I
           
>   > have to yell in order to be heard by microphone?
           
>   > I know that there are very few people with installed

           
microphones
           
>   in this
           
>   > group. Can they come forward and tell me what's their

           
experience,
           
>   which
           
>   > cables they used and where did they place
microphones.
           
>   > Cheers,
           
>   > Nik
            > 
            > 
           
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